Duckworth: In my research on high achievers, I’ve discovered that in addition to talent or innate gifts, there is something that’s not at all correlated with those things. And that is your grit, your passion for what you do, the perseverance that you demonstrate over years pursuing that thing that you love.

Heckert: What is the true definition of “grit”?

Duckworth: I define “grit” as the combination of two things, and they are equally important. I’ll start with the obvious first half: perseverance for long-term goals, essentially overcoming obstacles again and again in a resilient, optimistic way. Think of a really bad year or a bad decision you made, where a lot of people might have given up, but you didn’t. That’s perseverance. And when I say “grit,” it’s really the consistency of that perseverance, the stamina over long time periods.

But there is a second half of grit: a passion for long-term goals, being voluntarily obsessed with what you do, working on something that you truly love that gives your life meaning and purpose.

Heckert: We put in a lot of hours, we’re passionate about what we do, but is there a mixture or a formula behind that?

Duckworth: They do have to go together, right? Grit is this magical combination of having the work ethic and the resilience and applying that to something that you are voluntarily obsessed about, a kind of alchemy and unstoppable force that makes it possible to do truly great things.

Heckert: What would you say is the biggest difference between talent and grit?

Duckworth: What’s behind grit is alignment. Why are some people so steadfast? When I say “alignment,” what is really going on underneath the skin of gritty performers is that all of their goals are aligned. When you have goals that are in conflict with each other, you have ambivalence. You are like, Oh, I need to do that, but I kind of don’t have time. You feel scattered.

When I talk about alignment, there is this kind of harmony. The ultimate compass for somebody is to have an overarching purpose that gives rhyme and reason and direction to all of the goals that come beneath it in a kind of hierarchy.

Notice the times in your day or week where you feel distracted, scattered, conflicted. Those are moments of misalignment. That is why people who are truly gritty are so consistent over time because they are not being internally torn between goals.

Heckert: You use the hierarchy of goals. One of the examples you used was about a pitcher who would not use his pitching hand for anything other than pitching because his overarching goal was to be the best pitcher. And I think a lot of us have that goal. We want to be successful, but we eat bad, drink bad; we stay up and dance all night. All those things detract from that top goal. When did your light bulb come on about this?

Duckworth: Research shows that people who have a lot of clarity and alignment did not start out that way. There is a shocking amount of trial and error, making mistakes, detours. So no matter where you are in your journey, some of you may be completely aligned, and some of you may be still figuring it out. There is something called “sampling,” where you are trying things and quitting them. You have to be willing to make pivots and to figure things out in a very messy way, but as long as it is directed toward alignment, I think you are going to be OK.

Heckert: Would you say that grit is generational?

Duckworth: A questionnaire I developed essentially asks you to reflect on your hard work and passion over time. There is an age trend, and it says that the older you are, the higher your grit score. Is it because you grew up in a certain era? Maybe our young people are handicapped because they have too much instant gratification, too much one-click shopping that’s distracting. That is one hypothesis, but there’s another explanation. That is what scientists call the “maturity principle,” which is that you have learned something every year of your life and have developed passion and perseverance. Somebody in their 60s may have more grit because they became that way, not because they were just that way generationally. Whoever you are, it is partly because of your life experience and partly because of your generation and how you were raised.

Heckert: A lot of people grew up gritty, but they never applied themselves. What would be your advice to them?

Duckworth: If you are working hard, but it’s not exactly coming together, if there really is alignment, I don’t think you have that issue. Are you working hard on things that have some kind of road map? Could you tell me what your top level goal is in 10 words?

Heckert: You talk about how your goals must align on the way up, and one of the ideas is to use Post-it Notes.

Duckworth: You can write out your goals on Post-it Notes, things that you have to get done today, then things that you were planning on getting done in the next month. Then write down more abstract goals, things that you hope to have happen in the next year, and then reflect on what your decade-long goals are. Because they are Post-it Notes, you can pick them up and put them into a pyramid so that you know when your goals are going to happen.

Heckert: I think one of the biggest problems is this conflict of work-life balance. It is family versus business. How do you balance?

Duckworth: I’m not just a professional; I have a personal life. So you do have personal goals that are not professional. Keep it simple with two pyramids, one for personal and one for professional. There always is going to be some conflict between these two goal pyramids. More alignment is better, but you are never going to get to zero friction.

Heckert: You talk about alignment and family. I think defining your hierarchy starts on clarity. So let’s take that to the family portion. Is it good to have one spouse gritty and one loving and caring?

Duckworth: I do think having two people who are voluntarily obsessed about two totally different things in one house, especially when there are children who need to be raised and cared for, could be really hard. I’m married, and one of us would be a little more obsessed than the other. It’s like, “OK, I’m going to write this book. Can you take care of a lot of the other things while I’m doing that?” I think there is a trade-off. Truly great performers learn to be efficient in what they do. It’s not working 80 or 90 hours a week; it’s working in very high-quality, intentional, thoughtful ways.

Heckert: What would be your advice for the grandparents and parents in here that they can give to their kids to help them raise the next generation of awesome?

Duckworth: The most powerful thing in a child’s life are the role models they see. If you want your children to be gritty, be gritty. If you want your children to be kind, be kind. It’s the most important thing that you can do. But there is new research that shows that there is one other thing that you can do: Give your kids little lectures. Tell them the reason why you woke up early. In other words, tell your kid what you are modeling, instead of letting them try to figure it out themselves. Be the role model; you are always being watched.